I actually did for many years teach self-defense,
and I do think that physical self-defense is a big part
of what women are going to have to,
and I wish that this were not true.
of the most valuable things that women can learn,
is actually how to defend themselves physically.
From WIRED, this is the Big Interview.
I'm Senior Culture Writer EJ Dickson,
sitting in this week for Katie Drummond.
My guest today, Dr. Mary Anne Franks,
is a professor at the George Washington Law School
specializing in the intersection of civil rights,
Mary Anne Franks, thank you so much for being here today.
hearing the term revenge porn in 2011 or 2012.
and how we talk about it has evolved a ton since then.
So for listeners who aren't as plugged into the work you do,
I'm guessing terminology like image-based abuse
or deepfake sexual abuse can seem sterile
Can you walk me through the evolution of these terms?
Like, why is it better to be so formal
You know, one of the hardest things about trying
to talk about these issues is figuring out
So we think about the term revenge porn,
you know, for lack of a better word,
It's the kind of term that is very evocative
and people mostly know what you mean when you say that.
But the troubling aspect of it was that it did seem
to be the name that abusers were giving this conduct.
Revenge suggests that there's something
The term porn was really difficult for a lot of people
because they thought of porn as being something consensual
because it is really difficult to communicate
what we're talking about clearly without falling into one
of these pitfalls of either sounding
or sounding as though this is more trivial than
Right, and the word porn kind of has
functioned historically as a shorthand,
but that's also kind of unfair to people
This is why we originally landed on the term
non-consensual pornography, that's what we were trying to
emphasize was pornography itself, not a moral judgment,
but a non-consensual version of that.
I often think about the best term as being the one
that the audience that I'm talking to is most likely
and understand what we're talking about.
So for the purposes of what we're about
to talk about today, what are some good terms
I think that that's why image-based sexual abuse
the Cyber Civil Rights Initiative, we talk about it is
anytime you have a failure of consent at any level
of sexual expression or conduct, that's a problem.
So we're worried about lack of consent
to the actual sexual activity, that's one.
to being recorded engaging in a sexual activity.
Then there's lack of consent to having
And there is, of course, lack of consent
as though you are doing something that you were not.
And so we can think about all of those kinds
Sometimes more than one happens at a time.
recorded sexual assaults that are distributed.
Sometimes we're talking about consensual encounters
that were recorded without consent.
Sometimes we're talking about consensual sexual activity
but was not distributed with consent.
a former student from Cornell University
filed a lawsuit alleging that in 2024, seven members
and assaulted her repeatedly over the course of seven hours
Of course, that story's everywhere right now.
It sparked a national discussion about consent,
accountability, and safety, and rightfully so.
What I'd really like to focus on here though is the chunk
of Jane Doe's lawsuit that takes place online.
Basically, she says early that night in 2024,
one of the men who raped her also posted
announcing that she was upstairs and available,
which was how other members of his fraternity even knew
to enter the room she was inside of.
In the most basic way, what makes the Snapchat component
of this story worthy of discussion?
about the way the message was conveyed
was it was a reduction of a human being to body parts,
to speaking about a woman as though
And so I think it's not just the image,
but it's also this casual reference to a human being
and a casual reference to a large group of men
that anything was wrong about any of this behavior,
to see if they could participate in it.
So it isn't just that kind of alleged assault
It is also the idea that you can broadcast it
that not only will no one criticize you for it,
but that this will be a further bonding exercise,
a further social validation exercise.
That's what's really chilling about it.
I mean, I think that the Snapchat specific platform,
to encourage girls to send nude photos
with the confidence that they would disappear
by this kind of premise that things would disappear
and therefore you wouldn't be worried about them leaking.
really is why the platform has continued
It's this idea that it's ephemeral somehow,
one that almost gamifies what's happening.
Like, what sorts of stories have you heard
about bad behavior on college campuses that make you think,
We have been hearing about fraternity sexual assault
and not just fraternity sexual assault, college assault
that happens in many spaces, many places,
It is one of the experiences, unfortunately,
that is so common for women in particular
that whether they go to college or not,
they're very highly likely to experience it all the same.
But we do see higher concentrations
of especially these group assaults happening in places
that are male dominated like fraternities
Let me back up and say these kinds of experiences
really show that when you take several men
that one might want in a society and you put them together
and you put them in an environment where
the kinds of things they have been told
are special about them may be challenged.
And what I mean by that is college is sometimes
the first place where a very privileged male,
especially a privileged white male, might encounter
the attitude that he is not particularly special
and that it's going to create in that person
a pretty pronounced sense of cognitive dissonance.
And it's the kind of thing that he is going to want to
put out of his mind as quickly as possible.
And the easiest way to do that is to dehumanize
and to instrumentalize the very people
that he thinks might be representative
in these highly privileged kind of bastions, fraternities
and athletic teams, that part of what they are told is
you are entitled to feeling as though
you are the person on top at all times.
Yeah. I think one of the things that has really resonated
an Ivy League school, somewhere where you think
that something like this quote couldn't happen here.
of the reasons why this story has lingered for so long
and why it's horrified so many people,
and the level of access to education
You would think that maybe they would think twice about
speaking publicly or speaking to each other in this way,
but education really doesn't insulate
anyone from misogynistic behavior at all.
And what's interesting is at Cornell is whatever punishment
was given out, essays or suspensions,
maybe it seemed unfair in the moment
but it wasn't really punishment at all.
So are they even really learning a lesson?
You know, it's hard to know yet with ongoing litigation
what all the details are and what exactly happened.
And we know that there's obviously some kind of there there,
but what you were saying about is it surprising
that men in the context of these elite sort of
educational institutions would not think twice.
One of the first viral email incidents that ever happened,
you know, early days of the internet,
an email that escaped containment out of Cornell.
who had written a list titled, I believe,
75 Reasons Why Women Shouldn't Have Free Speech.
And women was followed by a parentheses bitches.
And this was sent around by these four men on an email list,
a really early email list at Cornell in 1995,
The 75 reasons included, I forget which number it was,
but one of them was, If she can't speak, she can't say no.
And that wasn't the only one of the 75 reasons
that was very reflective of that same attitude
of very casual sort of sexual violence.
Part of the reaction was this is shocking behavior.
The other reaction was boys will be boys.
They shouldn't have been punished at all.
And you even had some individuals saying
that this is a violation of free speech
and that Cornell was violating the First Amendment somehow
by punishing them at all and expecting them to apologize.
Do you remember any of the other 75 reasons on that list?
A lot of them had to do with the fear
A lot of them had to do with saying
that women shouldn't be allowed to vote.
There were several others that had to do with
because if she's performing oral sex properly,
she shouldn't be able to speak anyway.
What are some of the First Amendment questions here?
You mentioned that people were raising
First Amendment questions about that email.
Even if this is free speech, now what?
I think that the more things change,
The First Amendment issue such that it is,
is that private universities are not
And that means that if they say you can't say these things
or we're going to punish you for saying these things,
We might think that there could be other reasons
to complain about it, but it's absolutely false to suggest
And then when we're talking about public universities,
even when you do have an institution
that has First Amendment obligations,
they're not mutually exclusive with your obligations
or to impose discipline according to
necessary conditions of, first of all, anti-harassment
and for keeping general order on a campus.
So what I think we've really seen is the deliberate warping
that has really portrayed any attempt
We've seen that as being portrayed as censorship
and sensitivity and cancel culture and wokeism
It also reminds me of the conversation about deep fakes
and the conversation from a few years ago about
The argument against that from tech platforms was
that they didn't want to censor free speech.
And it just makes me think why is the autonomy of women
and what they want the freedom to do with their bodies,
It seems like it's the first thing that's sacrificed
when we talk about advocating for free speech.
When you have a cultural emphasis on,
or I would say cultural fetishization
of an abstract notion of free speech,
is it disembodies a conversation, right?
Somehow safety, physical safety becomes oppositional
And that's troubling enough in itself.
But even on the kind of terms of free speech
as a debate itself, this really shouldn't have worked
because as has been sort of relentlessly documented
sexual assault has a tremendous silencing effect on victims.
It affects not just their bodies and their physical safety,
although truly that ought to be enough,
but it also means that they can't express themselves freely.
We're literally talking about situations where victims
of sexual assault are told that they can't talk about
what happened to them, that they're the ones
who are placed under gag orders, not the person
We're talking about them having to fear that they're going
to be threatened and harassed by either
the person they have alleged has attacked them
or their friends, and so they withdraw from their classes
or they stop participating in activities,
at the Cyber Civil Rights Initiative for over a decade now
is sexual abuse is a free speech issue.
And when we allow sexual abuse to happen with impunity,
we are essentially saying we do not care
We do not care about the number of women who are going
to decide that they can't be journalists anymore
or talk about the topics they want to report on
because of the abuse and harassment
or the number of female politicians
who are driven out of political office
because of some ex-partner who's decided that he's going
to take a private moment and send it to everyone.
We're saying that we don't care about their bodies
or their speech, and that really should be
a free speech crisis that we're talking about.
In that vein, something I've really noticed
in the last few weeks is this thirst
What was it like for you watching this unfold in real time?
like, in terms of the other high profile cases
you've looked at where Jane Does have been doxxed?
of mass doxing stood out to you as different?
and not just ones that I've witnessed myself,
but ones that have preceded my own experiences.
or so when revenge porn becomes a term
the woman who founded my organization
who was herself a victim of revenge porn,
what it was like for her going public
and actually putting her face to the story
and the number of people who tried to destroy her life
because of that, we've just seen it get so much worse
and where there might have been some concern
to keep things within certain context, right?
Maybe there was some concern about this breaking containment
and becoming a mainstream issue as opposed to
an online issue, that no longer seems to be a bar
to anyone now, that once it becomes the blood sport
of this is a person whose story has ended up online,
the ability to just jump in or the desire to just jump in
and become part of it, there doesn't seem to be any sort
of countervailing force to say maybe you shouldn't do that.
We really seem to have removed whatever safeguards
or disincentives there might have been once.
You will get validated, you will get attention,
you will be maybe even just lauded for the fact
that you under your own name are in fact providing this kind
And I think that is a little different.
Yeah, there's a kind of guy online who is so
wrapped up in like, the slippery slope argument
around free speech that if we don't protect it at all costs,
even though the other side of what they're advocating for
is exactly what we're talking about.
It's hard to know where to start with-
[EJ laughs] how to answer that question,
but they're missing a lot of things.
But the free speech argument really has gained
And it is kind of the Elon Mummification, right,
because once you had someone like Elon Musk saying,
I'm going to bring free speech back to Twitter.
and you see someone with that kind of power and influence
do exactly what everyone who has ever made that claim
about how I really care about free speech do,
which is to immediately ban his critics,
to immediately shut down any accounts
that were actually making him look bad
who were posting actual CSAM, right
actual child sexual abuse material,
and just decide that those people should have a voice,
that was really, I think, what gave a lot of people
permission, right, to do exactly that, to say,
Whatever terrible self-interested thing I want to do
that might be criticized as misogynist or racist,
I'll just dress that up and I'm arguing for free speech
and I will just get away with it every time.
I'll be heralded as the worse I am,
but I really do think that there was something
about him in particular that just activated that
And now you really can't, in so many ways,
you can't convince men who are saying the same things
that men have been saying forever, right, about gender
or about race or about wealth or whatever it is.
that they're not free speech heroes,
that they're not just exactly what they seem like,
that the world no longer takes their mediocrity
You can't really convince them, they really think
that there is something very special about them
and that they are the geniuses that people will ignore.
So I think that's a big part of this.
One of the things that I was really struck by
in watching everybody so gleefully dox Jane Doe,
I didn't see any of these tweets doxing the woman
that they thought to be Jane Doe get taken down
or even have notes appended to most of them
that Trump administration does not mean when they say
We're going to return free speech, you know,
We're going to really fight for the First Amendment,
the same reason that that administration will then
all their enemies and silence assent
and shoot peaceful protestors in the street.
of free speech usually really mean is they are going
to put in place a system where everything they approve of
will have all the freedom possible to be expressed
and anything that they don't approve of,
It really is just the absolute conviction that you,
the special boy, right, really know what is true
and what is meaningful and what is nonsense.
And therefore when you make the decision
or you need to tweak your own algorithm
so that your posts get more attention,
that you have to resort to that, right,
that that somehow is freedom of speech,
but any enforcing guidelines against anybody else
that you don't like or that anybody who's being attacked
and that you agree with the attack on them,
is because this is the universalization kind of problem,
that the conviction that you alone can see
what is truly free speech and what is not.
And that is what is so frightening about those people
because for a while that wasn't necessarily the case.
When you have someone like Musk have this kind of megaphone
and that kind of platform, it really does send a signal
This is someone who quite candidly will say,
you know, he got Donald Trump elected.
He's got all the power in the world.
And so when he recreates what free speech is
and it satisfies a certain longing that many people have had
for such a long time to be able to be as misogynist
and racist as possible and not have to be called out on it
because they want to be able to defend themselves by saying,
what I'm doing here is really something very radical,
I mean, both of the books that I've written,
The Cult of the Constitution and Fearless Speech
have documented how this has always been true about the way
that people interpret free speech in the First Amendment.
We tell ourselves as Americans that we love free speech
and we've always allowed for dissent to flourish.
And you actually look at our history
and you look at how much every time
truly radical ideas were expressed,
and those radical ideas in America are the radical ideas
Every time those ideas have been expressed,
We have put lynch mobs on them. We have tortured them.
we, in this kind of elitist American sense,
that we are actually defending something.
with the New Yorker this week about Jane Doe's doxxing.
And something she covers are men who,
for one reason or another, got caught up in the crossfire,
after being erroneously associated with the men being sued.
And you see this with these stories all the time,
like, people in the wrong place at the wrong time
or people who happen to have the same first
and therefore get mistaken for them.
My question is, what do we owe those individuals?
Like, obviously we don't want to see innocent people
getting punished for stuff they didn't do,
but sometimes avoiding that comes at the expense
That is genuinely a troubling question, right?
And one answer is that the mob mentality
that social media platforms have made possible
is so destructive for exactly this reason,
that in the theme or in the kind of tune of saying
we are trying to protect all freedom of speech
and so everybody can say what they want,
they can name her if they want, it doesn't matter.
We have seen what that does to our environment, right,
what it does to our information environment.
It's not just that you get a lot of misinformation
but you also get this fury and you get this immediacy
and this unwillingness to slow down and fact check
that people online suddenly develop that they are, again,
uniquely clued into what's happening
I mean, I think the answers aren't going to please people,
but I don't think that social media platforms
as they operate now are ever going to mean
Because if the mob is going to come after people
without any regard for whether this is accurate information
or whether this is a proportional response,
no one is going to want to speak out
I think anyone ethical is going to worry
that even if you do have good information
and you do have the right names, that you wouldn't want this
because something terrible is going to happen.
If you want people to be held accountable,
but I don't think we should ever be enthusiastic about a mob
coming to someone's house or people getting swatted
or people's family members getting harassed and intimidated.
And it just seems like there's no way to calibrate that,
that the kind of blood lust that is just sort
of the currency of the social media platforms,
it's incompatible with releasing information like this.
So I think at this point, there really isn't any safe way
or their information about these issues without this being
Last month, I published an investigation
into the Burnerverse, which has been very,
very active in the doxing of Jane Doe.
And essentially, the Burnerverse is a community
of college sports fan accounts, many of whom are frat kids,
who have made something of a recreational sport
And my story focused on a 20-year-old girl
named Maddie Kowalski, who had a non-consensual
intimate video of herself having sex
circulated at UF where she went to school.
And the video likely would've just been circulated
if not for these anonymous burner accounts, amplifying it
and including her full name and her sorority.
and phone calls and social media posts,
and in the end, she briefly dropped out of college.
and the Burnerverse in Maddie's story, how, if at all,
are these two things in conversation with each other?
Well, I do think in both situations,
you've got an amplifier effect by an app, right?
There's the underlying conditions that we've always seen
prior to the technology that we know of right now.
We've always seen these tendencies of, again,
that kind of homosocial bonding, that kind of performativity
of masculinity for men for other men.
And that's that kind of impulse to treat women always
as lower on the hierarchy as men are
because that is the way that these things get expressed.
And particularly in fraternities or in athletic teams,
it's a kind of hazing process originally, right?
You make certain men, you treat them like women
and you teach them how to be abused, right?
And then you give them the power to abuse others
and you make it into essentially a bonding exercise.
And then what does technology do for that?
Well, then it adds a kind of performativity
and a kind of a spectacle aspect of it that is somewhat new.
So as opposed to maybe being a somewhat fleeting,
but also still potentially terrible event,
It is now something you can present to others.
It is now something you can get an even larger audience for.
Now you can turn the entire internet
And that I think is the really terrifying thing
about the story that you highlighted,
the fact that this isn't something that was ever easy
If it's your whole social circle, like all of your friends,
everyone on your campus, your entire town,
Now it's the sense of absolute captivity to the online world
and where nothing ever gets forgotten either.
And that's something that is incredibly,
not only because we can see the results of it
and what happens to the people caught up in it,
it's what's being done to all the participants
and what is happening to their sense of humanity or empathy
to become these kinds of participants
So there is something, and we've known for a long time that
that kind of mediation of the screen, of the app
has this corrosive effect on our ability to sympathize,
empathize, to see the humanity in someone else.
But you combine that with an already toxic environment
of male bonding and this attempt to retain some kind
of meaning in a world where increasingly men's mediocrity
is something they can no longer ignore in every other way.
This is where they go. This is what they choose.
They're going to make an example out of these women
so that they can feel better collectively
about the status of people like them.
So I think that that's what's bonding a lot of these men.
I think that's why they use social media.
I think social media is driving a lot of it
The more you can perform, how much you are humiliating
or degrading a woman, the more of a man you are.
Social media is so often lauded for tearing down the walls
between states and countries and continents
but it's also removing our boundaries
and increasing our sense of shamelessness
and making us think about ourselves constantly,
ourselves as brands, our own self-interest.
I guess what I'm wondering is as somebody who has
sort of witnessed the evolution of social media
and the de-evolution, the accompanying de-evolution
do you feel like people have just gotten worse as a whole?
Like, I kind of, as somebody who covers internet culture,
I just think that every single day.
Yes. Although I've also always been very much a...
I've always been someone who's been more worried about
what technology was going to do for us
than excited by what it was going to do.
I wrote my first apprehensive paper about cyberspace in 1999
I was freaked out by what I thought was going to happen
when the internet was on the way to becoming what it was,
which was that things were going to get
so much worse for vulnerable people in particular,
that everybody was going to become monstrous.
That was my fear in 99, and I used to joke about
how pessimistic I was, but now I think, well, no,
I think I was probably largely right.
And it doesn't everybody the same way, right?
I mean, it's worse for some people than for others,
So we can talk about it as we don't deserve social media,
but also that maybe social media is just,
when you don't care about boundaries.
This is what happens when you don't care about context.
This is what happens when you don't want
and don't believe that you need to be responsible
and that if people are ignoring you
or that you're not having the connections that you want,
and you should try to figure out how
to have more meaningful connections to others.
Instead, you've got this cheap, easy social media platform
to tell you, No, I do deserve attention
and anybody who denies it to me is wrong.
And it just becomes this kind of expectation that,
No, people must pay attention to me,
not because I have anything interesting
or valuable to contribute, but because I deserve it.
That's a really terrible thing to do to humanity, I think.
I think the idea that we don't have to work
for our human connections is a terrible, terrible idea.
So the more that we are told that we are the stars
of our own story, the more that we are told
that attention is something we can game out,
the worse everything is going to get for everyone,
but particularly for people who are already vulnerable.
I think we talk a lot about how terrible everything is
and how the worst people are in charge of our platforms.
And I think what a lot of people want in these moments
Like, yes, acknowledging everything is terrible,
but what would you tell young women in
or starting college about best tech practices right now,
like, in terms of their own reputational
I mean, I would have that conversation,
but I guess what I would say first is I think about how...
I can't remember how many years ago it was,
but I had a friend, a former peer of mine
who worked for a college in my home state,
And at some point, because of the work that I had done,
he reconnected and said, You know, we've had this
by the football team at this university in Arkansas,
and we really thought it'd be great if you would come
and have a conversation with the student body
because this is really alarming that this is happening.
And so we were making some of the plans
and he said, So you're gonna have, you know,
And I said, I'm sorry, who am I talking to?
And he said, Well, you know, we're going to have
all the female students who would like to come.
We have a big enough classroom for them.
And I said, I'm sorry, I think I should be speaking
because if you're telling me that you've got a spate
of sexual assaults, I don't know that it's the women
I need to be speaking to so much as the men.
And so we went back and forth on this for a while
and eventually he said, Okay, that's probably true.
but I really do think that the conversation
So we got a conversation with the men first
and the women came if they wanted to,
but I said, They're the ones we need to be talking to.
So I think I'd partly say that one answer
to your question is we need to be talking to men
and we need to be holding men accountable.
And I know you know that, and I know that that's something
but then you also want to be realistic about
well, how can women keep themselves safe?
Because no matter how many times you talk to men,
does it mean that they're going to stop hurting women?
Probably not. So what can you do to protect yourself?
like not a very practical solution, but I hope that it is.
I actually did for many years teach self-defense.
And I do think that physical self-defense is a big part
of what women are going to have to,
and I wish that this were not true.
of the most valuable things that women can learn
is actually how to defend themselves physically,
not just because of the physical aspect of it,
that are taught in good self-defense programs,
people who are trying to push your boundaries early on
are going to do much worse things later.
here are the kinds of things to avoid.
Here's how you can engage in solidarity
with people who are also vulnerable.
So I think that's a big part of the conversation is
because they have to be held accountable,
but also try to make sure that should it not go that way,
that you will be prepared to be able
to physically defend yourself and maybe help others.
To that end, what advice would you give young men
starting college about best practices?
that you see young men getting caught up in
and what can they do to basically avoid them or be better?
Well, here I would start with something
that I think probably is advice that I would give to men
and women both, which is be much more intentional
about why you are engaging with technology
I used to teach a class called Law Policy and Technology
the last time you were on your phone
or doing something on a social media site,
do you remember, you know, why you were on it
Was it something that you were doing kind of thoughtlessly
or were you trying to reach a certain goal with it?
And part of what I wanted them to think about was,
but I don't want it to be using me at the same time.
So be intentional about why you're on it,
Ask yourself after you've engaged on social media,
Have you learned something? Do you feel stupider?
What am I actually getting out of this experience?
Because what I found is that people becoming much more
conscious about their social media practices,
which is social media might be making us angrier and dumber
because what are the other things we could actually be doing
So a big part of it, totally neutral,
about why you're using social media
and then think about all the things
And also think about how if it's not something
that you would do right in front of somebody,
Which sounds obvious too, but sometimes escapes us
and dehumanization factor to being online.
And I think that that's what I would suggest
and they're probably not patterns that you want to embrace.
and really have answers for why it is
that you're making decisions every day,
including the ones that you're making online.
What does that actually look like though,
about the way you use social media?
Does it mean deleting certain apps?
Well, specifically when we would have conversations,
and we do have a lot of conversations about
It's a question about, one, for everyone,
because we've actually seen a lot more victimization
of young men when it comes to sextortion schemes.
There's this kind of epidemic that's happening
and what breaks my heart about a lot of these things is
how many of these interactions begin
because boys, girls, everyone are so lonely
because they are being told, Oh, you're very attractive
or I'd like to get to know you better
How much of it begins in this really heartbreaking
that obviously people are so eager for
and then it turns into something really dark really fast.
Do you want to put pieces of yourself out into the world
because you want connection or is it because of something?
Is it something that you are grasping for
out of the social media connection?
And a big part of it is just telling them
all the horror stories of what can happen to you
without trying to blame people for what happens to them,
just telling them these are the kinds of things
So I think, think really carefully about what you want
Think of yourself as something precious, right,
that does not need to be parceled out to other people
because you are enough in yourself.
after someone else's validation, hopefully,
that you probably have skills and you probably have hobbies
and you probably have important actual connections
around you that you could be spending time on.
because there are probably more valuable things
with your time, but also be aware of the things
and how those things are almost always going
to begin in a place of vulnerability,
And try to not look at vulnerability
Look at it as something to guide or to support
to not make worse when you see it in someone else.
I know I'm stressed out every single day looking at my feed.
What I want to know is what gives you hope?
What do you see changing right now in real time?
but looking at the Cornell Daily Sun editorial,
when I saw that headline, Cornell Won't We Will,
when I saw that these were students who had kind of stuck
with the story, that really wanted to tell the story
and they knew that it was a risk, right?
That they knew that there were going to be all kinds
of legal and other implications of bringing the story out.
I just thought, I don't know why these are not
the free speech hero stories that we're telling
because to me that's a free speech hero story.
That is such a dedicated, brave kind of thing to do.
It does actually give me hope that people continue,
that might be awaiting them for doing so,
because they know something to be true
or because they're trying to highlight
And so journalism is one of those things
that really does speak to me still.
when there's stories like the Cornell Daily Sun's,
I think, okay, there are still people who are going
to talk about this no matter how much
negative consequences are going to come from that.
and as long as people are still willing to do that,
then there's still something worth fighting for.
Thank you so much for being here today, Mary Anne,
and for taking the time to talk about this.
Thank you so much, EJ, for having me on.
